A little something for Truckie Tuesday

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5 Comments

  • anchorpoint1 says:

    Good demonstration.

  • Kevin says:

    I would respectfully submit that we don’t drop the cut pieces of roof in our victims and or Engine Companies.

    If you want to disorientate your Engine crew hit them with 2 foot by 4 foot piece of roof. Alot of our roofs have several layers of shingles (they skip that strip it before you put a new roof on) and the pieces are heavy.

    In newer commercial buildings a drop ceiling is no match to stop a large section of roof.

    Now for a bit of Ripple’s Believe It or Not…
    During a Truck Ops class some years back we were working on a roof composed of the following.
    Tar and Rock
    Lighweight concrete
    Tin.

    3 Saws on the roof
    #1 K-950 with a universal blade (the type that looks like small pieces clued around the blade not a carbine tip style)
    #2 Tempest Ventmaster
    #3 K-950 with a Diamond tip blade.

    Of the 3 which would you think the fasters cutter?

    If you chose the K950 combos sorry you out of this round.

    I had ran saws in the logging industriy since the 80s and would have bet on the K950 all day long.

    Utilizing the deepth gauge on the Ventmaster and “pushing” the saw away from you while rest the deepth gauge on the roof you cut as fast as you cared to walk on roof next to a hole.

    Was the chain shot, yes it would barely mark a piece of wood when got done. But it did out perform the rest with K-950 #1 coming in right behind the Ventmaster.

  • firestudent1 says:

    Kevin great points. Thank you for pointing that out. Sometimes in the hast of trying to post something that firefighters can use right away, things that can be important such as what you are stating gets forgotten. Thank you for commenting and we hope you will continue to contribute to our site.

  • anchorpoint1 says:

    OK Kevin first, thanks for commenting, I don’t want to sound critical, well maybe a little. The cut should be over the fire, not the firefighters. The video does not show the hopefully large amounts of products of combustion that should be coming through the hole. More than 2 guys on a roof would be a luxury in most departments.
    What do you suggest we do with the cut out piece? Do you have a trick to moving the panel aside that works reliably? You can’t expect it to hang by the nails and drop when it’s ready later as the fire evolves. What if it isn’t even wood? Some crappy metal decking that is puddle welded won’t have much to keep it in place after a cut.
    And my last question, when would you cut a concrete roof? Besides the potential dangers associated with that, aren’t there more productive ventilation techniques that could be used than doing a clean breach on the roof?
    Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the comment, It just raises more questions for me and maybe some other readers too. Be safe.

  • Kevin says:

    anchorpoint1 Says:
    April 28, 2010 at 8:08 am
    I hope this copies and pastes correctly. I put Anchorpoint in italics and my reply in bold. Not yelling just trying show the reply.
    OK Kevin first, thanks for commenting, I don’t want to sound critical, well maybe a little.

    Asking questions in not being critical it is just asking questions. It is how we learn. You are correct the cut should be over the fire, keyword should. But so we are directly over the fire and that fire is in some say racked storage or the fire is actually a box truck. We drop our piece through it bounces off either of these two objects and cart wheels off a little more than is length. If you cut commercial holes like I do that is at 10 feet or better. Or maybe the pieces hangs and doesn’t fall till later…..
    The cut should be over the fire, not the firefighters. The video does not show the hopefully large amounts of products of combustion that should be coming through the hole. More than 2 guys on a roof would be a luxury in most departments.
    This a commercial building more than two members on the roof is a necessity not a luxury.

    Sending too few to the roof is as big a hazard as too many. The operation takes longer and members get tired faster being subject to error. If there is not enough people arriving, dispatch more. Cutting the roof is, as the late Chief Tom Brennan phrased, which I have not heard many say anymore part of “Making the Building Behave”. Cutting on hole and stopping the effect of smoke banking down and the fire rolling through the attic or cockloft has a far greater benefit than having 2 roving chiefs and 2 safety officer walking around listening to one hook and saw working above and wondering if they will ever get down. It kills me to see five Chiefs standing in front of fire, while their understaffed engine and trucks struggle along. Hey Chief, you are supervisor go supervise or go work. The best Chiefs I know have dirty white helmets.

    What do you suggest we do with the cut out piece? Do you have a trick to moving the panel aside that works reliably? You can’t expect it to hang by the nails and drop when it’s ready later as the fire evolves.

    Flat roof, leave it up there, if you are worried about it getting blown off by a master stream later, you need to take the other roof junk off with you to. We are talking about a flat roof here not pitched.

    What if it isn’t even wood? Some crappy metal decking that is puddle welded won’t have much to keep it in place after a cut.

    Pull/roll it back leave part of it holding and take care of during overhaul. No where is it written that neatest hole works the best, just a big enough hole.
    And my last question, when would you cut a concrete roof? Besides the potential dangers associated with that, aren’t there more productive ventilation techniques that could be used than doing a clean breach on the roof?

    I used the wrong term, I did some searching and found names like Pyrolight this is an extremely light weight roof material. My point being we found you could be very effective with a saw that you normally would not think effective. This was a drill working with an acquired structure which we had built a pitched roof on top of. This question came up how hard would the building’s roof be to cut. There was much discussion about how we would not like to be on this roof during a fire. Brother this ain’t USAR work this TRUCK work. Get up there, get it open and GET OFF. I know this is a play on terms but as I accidentally used the wrong term light weight concrete, calling a vent hole a clean breach could get some strange results when given as an order. Go ahead and laugh as you picture a Searchcam and Drill headed up the ladder instead of a K-950 and a hook. While seemingly a petty thing such as Rodeo (being a cowboy event) and Rodeo Drive the generation division of the fire service of what is being taught at the fire school and senior men giving the orders has began to show in terminology. For instance while Talking Fire the other day; those of us that actually rode a tailboard and slightly there after know the order, “Engine X come in and fill out Engine XX” means Engine XX was laying a supply line and ran out of hose. Engine X needs to complete the supply line. One of the younger members thought it meant to assist Engine XX on their attack line another had never heard the term. Admittedly something missed by us in training but not something to find out at 3 A.M. when you are expecting the engine to stop at the end of the supply line and it cruises on into the fire. Many would argue it an “old term” and it is, till it’s an order on the radio.
    Let’s get back on the roof. Someone looked at me sort of strange when I made a comment about, “You just cut the hole we’ll get the ceiling from underneath.” Whoever wrote you always push the ceiling down after you cut the hole has not went to the same fires as some of us. Two distinct ceiling type’s, shiplap (cut boards nail to the ceiling joists) which you are not going to beat down before you burn up on the roof being one. The other is stucco and wire mesh which you can knock an entire room’s ceiling down in one very heavy piece. Point being, know your territory and building construction and match your techniques accordingly.

    Don’t get me wrong, I appreciate the comment, It just raises more questions for me and maybe some other readers too. Be safe

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Marques Bush

Firefighter Basics launched in February 2009 after Founder/Editor Marques Bush was looking for a way to express himself and share his experiences with brother and sister firefighters. Shortly after founding the site Marques spoke with several trusted friends and ask them to come on board and contribute also. Firefighter Basics is a dedicated group of firefighters who strive everyday to practice what they preach about Training, Safety, and Tradition.  We can be reached at firefighterbasics@gmail.com

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Comments
Ryan McGovern (Ladder Jack)
Ideology vs Philosophy: Are you Slicing or Dicing in the fire service trends
Marques, As I have been following this debate for the past few weeks, and looking for the best way to respond, I could find no "correct" way to join the conversation without maybe coming off as narrow-minded. The response you have here says exactly what I believe is the best way to approach the SLICER/…
2014-12-03 00:41:24
Fyrfyter19
The next big thing…or just another acronym?
Though hitting a fire from the outside lowers the temperature in the room, it raises it closer to the floor. I've been a firefighter for 14 years and work for an inner city department. You'd better be damn sure there are no victims in the structure anywhere near where those heated gasses are going to…
2014-11-24 17:54:49
LeRoy Burlingame
Ideology vs Philosophy: Are you Slicing or Dicing in the fire service trends
I found that firefighters do more calls than just structure fires, so with that I've established an acronym I use and teach others in my company. FIRE; First unit, Identify, Resources, Evaluate. It's simple and can't be used for any type of call. I know it won't ever catch like SLICERS but it works. First…
2014-11-20 20:22:06
Al waters
Ideology vs Philosophy: Are you Slicing or Dicing in the fire service trends
When I think of slicers or dicers I think of an acronym to remind you of interior attack tactics. S you should constantly be aware of your surroundings by maintaining your situational awareness while making an interior attack. L locating the fire is really apart of size up I.e. Seat of the fire and extension.…
2014-11-20 01:28:05
anchorpoint1
The next big thing…or just another acronym?
As you can most likely tell, I am in favor of the questioning. Thank you for your concern, but I am not offended. This arena does not lend itself kindly to the soft skinned. The purpose of this site is the discussion. Seeing how other departments operate and comparing that to how your department operates.…
2014-11-17 00:21:17

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